Countmeout.ie resort to “black hat” tactics for the leave the Catholic Church Campaign
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Came to my attention this morning that the Count Me Out campaign are now using the domain catholic.ie to point to their website.
I don’t think that’s playing a fair game at all. Have the campaign, zero problem with that, but I think this use of the domain name is wrong.
I’ve sent a letter to the Irish Domain Registrar (the IEDR) about this. Copy below. Will update with response from IEDR as and when. I don’t even know if they entertain such emails from the public.
Dear Sir/Madam
I wish to formally make an objection to the IEDR granting the domain name Catholic.ie to what appears to be someone representing Atheist Ireland.
I note from the domain records that it was registered as an Unincorporated Association name. The IEDR rules state that the domain granted under this application should “reflect the organisation’s name”.
Even by a dictionary definition standard, I cannot see how catholic.ie can reflect this organisations name.
Further, the domain is now being used in a disingenuous way and is pointing to another website http://www.countmeout.ie – which is, in my view, a clear misuse of the domain name.
I would like to know the circumstances in the granting of the name, and what action will be taken to remedy the situation.
Yours sincerely,
AJ O’Flaherty
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38 Comments
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Ah, screw playing fair, I say. The Blasphemy law and a millions other things isn’t playing fair.
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Agree, there are a million other things – but if there was a Muslim.ie website pointing somewhere it shouldn’t I’m sure it wouldn’t be allowed . Bit sick of catholic bashing tbh
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Sorry I’m on abit of a knife edge with this stuff lately. I can’t believe the blasphemy law has been passed in the wake of the Ryan report.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Hey,
I’m one of the people involved in CountMeOut. I just want to make a few points.
First of all, the domain name catholic.ie is registered, and has always been registered to the best of my knowledge, to Atheist Ireland. Previously it pointed to a video poking fun at the inauguration of Pope Benedict.
A few weeks ago, Atheist Ireland contacted me and asked if they could redirect the domain to our website. I, frankly, didn’t see the harm so gave them permission to do so.
So now we have a site that previously pointed to a video making fun of Pope Benedict, to another site that is advising people on how to defect from the Catholic church using a church-created document first referenced under the Canon Law revision of 1983 and then formalised in a papal edict of March 2006.
I’m not trying to be disingenuous here, I genuinely don’t see how a video satirising Pope Benedict is more apropos for the domain catholic.ie than a site that is publising an established piece of Catholic doctrine, regardless of what you might think our motives are. Our site *is* about the Catholic church – the institution not the faith. Anyone who visited the previous domain would have gotten a loss less information about the church, and would have had far more grounds to be offended, than they do now.
Having said all that, I’m willing to be convinced either way. If the redirect causes genuine confusion then I’ll be more than happy to request that they remove it.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:13 am
I guess ultimately the church itself should make a claim on the domain. My email to the iedr is intended to prompt a review of the original application.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:21 am
But you say earlier “Bit sick of catholic bashing tbh”, suggesting you’re annoyed with our website rather than the organisation of the .ie domain.
Can you show me where we bash Catholics, as opposed to the institution and hierarchy of the Catholic Church?
July 24th, 2009 at 12:28 am
My reply to John re: catholic bashing is a general comment rather than a specific comment re: CMO. I have not said you are bashing Catholics – please don’t draw inference from a reply I gave to someone who interact with on Twitter and blogs. My entire reason for this post and the email to the iedr is re granting of a domain name in what I believe is a breach of their own rules.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:03 am
Atheist Ireland could plausibly argue its their web domain under the definition of catholic with a small ‘c’, ie. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
If you’re not offended by the site and your entire reason for the post is “re: granting of the Domain”, perhaps you should reconsider the title of this post? Sounds like offense to me.
Also I wonder will you take similar issue with parish.ie and thechurch.ie ?
July 24th, 2009 at 8:15 am
They could indeed argue that but in this case i see it is a very black and white issue. The name catholic.ie bears no relation to the organisation name that applied for the name. Even if the IEDR applied the dictionary definition, the use of the domain in this case is wrong. That’s my view .
If I was offended by the campaign and wanted to express my opinion on it I would have done so by now. If you want my opinion on it – I think it’s novel and well executed (up to now). I don’t think it needs to use another domain name.
July 24th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Just FYI, when it was initially registered, the IEDR got loads of complaints from the Irish Catholics forum members and stood over the decision to grant; so your complaint is unlikely to have any effect.
July 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Well I for one can not see the problem. There is a domain http://www.catholic.ie and the content the user receives upon typing that in is entirely relevant to that domain name.
That content to which I refer is basically just highlighting to anyone to whom it concerns, a procedure that exists within catholicism itself. Not within atheist, nor within the heads of the people who own the site. It is en entirely catholic relevant website now with entirely catholic relevant content.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:11 am
@hanz – wasn’t aware of that – interesting though. Shall see how they respond (if it all)
@Gavin – The decision to grant in the first place is at issue here and I don’t see how that was justified in the fist place. I mentioned muslim.ie – if someone tried to register that and then used it to poke fun at a leader of the muslim church there would be uproar and IEDR would revoke the domain. Same would go (I’m sure) for any other church too.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:13 am
I’m going to complain to the IEDR about this site. Craic is an Irish term generally meant to equate with fun. Using this thread as evidence I’m sure I can prove this site is as close to fun as suicide bombing is to an Olympic sport. A domain name with craic in the title should be about having a sense of humour instead of whining like a parish pump crawthumper in defence of the Catholic Church.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:15 am
This is a .com – IEDR rules don’t apply – but keep it coming though and get nasty and personal about it if you wish.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:16 am
PS – Take a look through my archives and many other posts and you’ll see the general tenor of my blog.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Your “fatwa envy” does not become you I am afraid.
The site was registered not by an association, but by an individual. His name can be found in seconds. Since, according to catholic rules, that individual was and as far as I know still is, a Catholic… your position that the site was registered with a name that has nothing to do with the person who registered it is entirely voided in my opinion. And since this complaint was lodged many times before, it seems it is also so in their opinion too.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Note, I said any other religion too – muslim.ie would be a hot button.
Here is the domain record – clearly states an unincorporated association, and granting of that comes with proviso that the name registered reflects the organisation name and that was the main part of what I wrote to the iedr. I added that it’s use now is breaching the domain rules the IEDR set down. I’m not a lobby group, and I’m just reading the rules they publish.
domain: catholic.ie
descr: Catholic.ie
descr: Unincorporated Association
descr: Unincorporated Association Name
admin-c: AGR521-IEDR
tech-c: AAM456-IEDR
renewal: 28-February-2010
status: Active
nserver: ns1.blacknight.com
nserver: ns2.blacknight.com
source: IEDR
July 24th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Well keep trying. For the reasons I gave I feel you have not got a leg to stand on, both in terms of the registration THEN and its use NOW (in fact more so on the latter) and considering this complaint was rejected numerous times in the past, the IEDR also seem to think you have not got a leg to stand on.
Do make sure to post their reply for our amusement wont you?
July 24th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Don’t worry Gavin I will indeed – I’ve obviously provided you with a bit of amusement thus far – glad to oblige.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:35 am
The word “catholic” does not belong to the Roman Catholic Church. Not only that even if the site was about child rape, torture, profiting from the misled, corrupting politics, burning people alive and perpetuating lies all that could easily be proven to come under the heading “catholic” with specific reference to the Roman Catholic Church.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:42 am
@Falconer – never said catholic DID belong to the Roman Catholic Church. What I’ve said is that IEDR rules (in my view) granted a domain name inappropriately to an unincorprated association when their rules state that a domain granted under this application process
“should reflect the organisation name.”
That’s it, in a nutshell. I’m not bible thumping or defending ANY ills of the Roman Catholic Church (and I’m well aware there are many and they are sickening) but facts are facts in the domain process application – hence my post.
If you want to debate the ills of the Catholic church, I’m not here to defend the indefensible at all.
As forum moderators would say – stay on topic.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:57 am
oh come aj you not using you wouldn’t do this to muslims argument are you??
we wouldn’t do it muslims cos we’re all bloody catholic whether we like it or not it seems.
even the process of defection doesn’t mean we not catholic any more in the eyes of the church, i wonder if we’re still catholic in eyes of iedr?
July 24th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@Steve – If I can use the muslim.ie argument as an illustration for something like a domain reg – then yes, guilty as charged.
I’ve said the campaign is novel and well executed and I say fair play to anyone that goes through the process.
If the CMO campaign hadn’t used the re-direct, I’d be getting about my business and letting people get on and do what they want to do.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I’ve sent a letter of complaint of to the IEDR………just for the craic!
Dear Sir/Madam
I wish to formally make an objection to the IEDR granting the domain name lecraic.ie to what appears to be someone representing the stubborn remnants of crawthumping Irish begrudgery. As such the domain name is now being used in a disingenuous way which is, in my view, a clear misuse of said domain name. Craic is an Irish word meant to be associated with fun and enjoyment rather than small minded moaning and complaining. The association of the word “craic” with moaning and complaining is an attack on Irish culture and in my opinion the ownership of the domain name should be rescinded.
I would like to know the circumstances involved in the granting of the name, and what action will be taken to remedy the situation.
Yours sincerely,
Noel Graniger
July 24th, 2009 at 11:16 am
but its catholic site with a catholic process for catholic people
July 24th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Bravo Noel – keep it coming. You haven’t looked at ANY other posts on my blog by the way. If you did, you’d have seen the one about the Stump of Limerick or maybe the Shite Shoveling opportunity in Killarney. You obviously don’t believe in free speech and letting people have an opinion and express it. In this case it’s about a domain name, nothing else.
Please do send your complaint to the IEDR but as I’ve already pointed out (and PLEASE read this next bit ) – this is a .COM not a .IE.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:25 am
That’s as may be Steve – again, the issue is the granting of a domain in what I see as breach of IEDR rules.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:48 am
because it reflects the organisations name, theyre catholic
July 24th, 2009 at 11:59 am
but it was atheist Ireland that made the domain application (unincorporated association) . catholic.ie doesn’t seem to “reflect the organisation NAME” – the organisation name being atheist ireland – who registered the domain in the first place.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I love it, just love it: Sprinkle the mention of religion onto the cake of a thought and all hackles rise. The discussion, the comments, brilliant, can’t stop laughing.
And that’s, of course, why you, Falconer, might wish to reconsider: AJ, aka lecraic, does provide tremendous entertainment with his blog but that does not mean that what he says always has to be funny. Which reminds me: How did you, Falconer, come by your chosen name? I am not Irish, Catholic or much else for that matter, however I do admire your use of words and have added that absolute fabulous turn of phrase of yours “whining like a parish pump crawthumper in defence of the Catholic Church” to my own treasure trove of the English language (I hope copyright does not apply).
AJ, one small point: I so wish you had signed that letter of yours with “yours FAITHFULLY”. Other than that be happy to run a blog that stokes a bit of intelligent discussion.
U
July 24th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Darn, totally forgot the appropriate sign off on the email !
I’m enjoying the to and fro – that’s what it’s all about – least I’ve raised a valid issue re: the IEDR anyway
July 24th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
The organisation Atheist Ireland did not register the domain name catholic.ie. The domain was registered well before AI came into existence. If you actually checked before you started indignantly swinging your handbag you’d have found the name is still not registered to that organisation.
http://www.domainregistry.ie/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?whois=catholic.ie&Search.x=32&Search.y=8
Ursula: copyright doesn not apply as long as you only use the phrase for the craic!
July 24th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
good man Noel, back for another round. Great stuff. That’s even MORE interesting as I am curious now what name the unincorporated association DID have at the time of registration.
You know that big image at the top of this post – the one where Count Me Out thanked Atheist Ireland? That’s kindof pointing to some atheist connection..
by the way – I don’t own or use a handbag- I use a big manly rucksack to carry all my bibles, rosary beads, holy water , crosses etc. to work every day. A handbag wouldn’t carry all that stuff very well.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Make up your mind aj, you say “If the CMO campaign hadn’t used the re-direct, I’d be getting about my business and letting people get on and do what they want to do.” and then say you’re specifically concerned about the accuracy of the domain name- and the title of this piece defies you again.
Make up your mind and collect your balls, if you’re offended outright, then say so and the rest of the world will leave you and your offense where it sits- It seems you started an argument without looking into it further and now you’re swaying your argument depending on the comment.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Ginger – bullshit – I’ve been quite clear – you have your view, I have mine – end of
July 24th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Your’e going to need your rosary beads because your’e in trouble with the catholic church limited as well now.
http://www.lecraic.com/2009/07/11/tree-stump-of-limerick-tee-shirt-make-your-own/comment-page-1/#comment-13812
July 24th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Hey aj,
One correction
“You know that big image at the top of this post – the one where Count Me Out thanked Atheist Ireland? That’s kindof pointing to some atheist connection..”
You seem to be referencing me as an authority on the legal status of the catholic.ie domain. I said “thanks to Atheist Ireland” as I presumed that they owned the URL, but this might well not be the case. It could be registered to an individual who happens to be a member of AI or another group under this person’s name; I have absolutely no idea, and if it concerns you as much as it seems to then its something you’ll have to look into yourself.
Incidentally, I try to thank everyone who links back to the site; we’ve had links from religious and non-religious groups and I’ve thanked them all personally through email or via the Twitter feed.
July 25th, 2009 at 1:21 am
aj the the majority of atheist ireland members and users were raised catholic and remain catholic in the eyes of the church and therefore you as a’Roman Catholic’ also it must follow see them as still catholic the same goes for countmeout creators and users.
anyway aj this is your reason
”
Agree, there are a million other things – but if there was a Muslim.ie website pointing somewhere it shouldn’t I’m sure it wouldn’t be allowed . Bit sick of catholic bashing tbh”
both a crock and wrong